Just wanted to bring this on the forum as it was easier to get everyone's attention here than elsewhere.

Handicapping all players who are on the Pro-Tour is completely unfair and counter-productive for Notts pool.

To become an International a player must qualify near the top of their Region in County matches, then go through a World class trials system.

To become a Professional a player must beat several of the World's top players consistently throughout two years of ranking tournaments.

To play on the Pro-Tour a player must get their cheque book out and write £400, sign and then include in an envelope to George Harwood.  Then follow it up with a load more cash throughout the year.  No pre-required ability, qualifiers or achievements.  So why penalise Notts players that want to further their experience by putting a handicap on them?

To narrow it down I propose the following:

Pro-Tour Top 128 or International other than full Men's Team: -1

Pro-Tour Top 64, Professional or Full Men's International: -2 or excluded depending on the Tournament.

Rant concluded.

Well ranted Mr Harvey.

I have one question regarding you proposals.

Is the Idea to handicap the better player, or to give the lesser player the advantage?????

When in a flyer ( at Yarmouth for example ) the better player does not start on a minus score, the lesser player starts on a plus score.

Therefore if trying to copy a precedent, would the following not be used.

Pro tour top 64 or full professional gives away a 2 head start.
Pro tour top 128 or other professional gives away a 1 head start.

?????  

--Last edited by pm on 2009-01-04 00:31:20 --

It was just a rant for those tournaments that feel the need to handicap us pool nerds.  Whether it be negative start for us or positive start for the opponent, it is all relative to the length of the match.

My aim was to point out that handicapping should be fair to the standard of the players involved.  In the Tournaments I've been in that hasn't always been the case.

I totally agree John, great post...

I for one am on the tour and am no where near one of the best players in nottingham, however if I were enter some comps I would have to give legs away - For what??? I don't enter these comps as my chances of winning it are even further reduced than they are already if I have to give legs away to people like Lee Howitt, Liam Stanley etc etc etc who are far better players than I am!!!

I agree that the rankings on the tour should play a bigger part if something is to be done, however I feel it should all be scrapped because as a county we should be promoting players to improve their game - even if it means they throw money in to a tour etc. Reducing the number of comps people can enter doesn't for me promte pool as well as it should in Nottingham...  

--Last edited by NK on 2009-01-04 18:50:03 --

I can understand if you are not a top player, to not want a penalty, but if we are to make pool more accessible to the masses there must be some kind of incentive for the lesser players to enter a tournament if they are to get that much needed match practice.
In general I think most would agree that tour players are in the top echelon and/or take pool very seriously, enough to part with hundreds of pounds.
The Bobby Singh Tournament (as you are aware John) attracts quite a few non-top players who have the chance to get their money back if they get to the quarters and have a good day out. The more serious tend to drink pop and mope around all day with faces like wet weekends.
If all tour players entered this tournament on a level footing, the standard would be higher, but with far fewer entrants. IMO

On the other side...
psychologically having a 1 leg lead can be very off-putting - I speak from experience

Gaz if players need to get much needed match practice, first of all they need to put in some quality practice like the top players do. I personally have not put in the same practice that the top players do ever. Or any practice for 2yrs. But, I am now trying to up my game by putting a lot of  time in practising, and chucking a s--t load of money away on the tour. I will not be entering the Bobby Singh tournament next year, unless the rules are changed. After all the years of knowing Bobby, I think it is a shame the rules are stopping people like me, Neil,Ron, supporting this worth while cause.

Quote :

beestongaz wrote : I can understand if you are not a top player, to not want a penalty, but if we are to make pool more accessible to the masses there must be some kind of incentive for the lesser players to enter a tournament if they are to get that much needed match practice. In general I think most would agree that tour players are in the top echelon and/or take pool very seriously, enough to part with hundreds of pounds. The Bobby Singh Tournament (as you are aware John) attracts quite a few non-top players who have the chance to get their money back if they get to the quarters and have a good day out. The more serious tend to drink pop and mope around all day with faces like wet weekends. If all tour players entered this tournament on a level footing, the standard would be higher, but with far fewer entrants. IMO On the other side... psychologically having a 1 leg lead can be very off-putting - I speak from experience

Understanding sort of where you are coming from Gaz, however still think assumptions are being made. As John quite rightly said you don't have to be a top quality player to go on the tour.... by penalising these players by starting them on -1 you are making the assumption that they are the better players in the competition. With the exception of Clint and Donut I don't think the other Notts players on the tour would be in the top favorites for a comp in Notts in my opinion!!

If you look at putting handicaps on Internationals then that is a different story as to become an international player you have to be quality !!!!

I might run a comp that says if you have ever played for Rileys or Ponda you start on -1  eh Gaz lol

These comps in my opinion, should lower the entry fee, therefore lowering the prize money if they don't want to attract good players. Then the people that want to enter for fun and get p----d can. Say £5 entry fee should do it. If I lose in a comp I want to lose to a better player not a player that needs a head start.

Quote :

pk1962 wrote : These comps in my opinion, should lower the entry fee, therefore lowering the prize money if they don't want to attract good players. Then the people that want to enter for fun and get p----d can. Say £5 entry fee should do it. If I lose in a comp I want to lose to a better player not a player that needs a head start.

Although it going off thread a little now, I dont think that particular tournament is too expensive, it is for a good cause and is to have a good day and remember an old mate for quite a few people. There are quite a few lads like Earl and big Bob that don't bother with tournaments but want to get through a round or two if they are playing well in this one and the handicap IS an incentive to turn up.
But I agree some should be cheaper.

Others, like me don't get time to put in quality practice, only match nights or the odd tournament. Although I am not bothered if I have a leg advantage or not. I like to test myself against the top players, I think we all enjoy the challenge, thats the attraction of pool for me.

Maybe the answer is to handicap only on a players' merits, the problem with that is, its just one persons opinion, and tournaments are difficult enough police anyway.
difficult one eh?

Quote :

beestongaz wrote :   Maybe the answer is to handicap only on a players' merits, the problem with that is, its just one persons opinion, and tournaments are difficult enough police anyway. difficult one eh?

Not opinion if you do it on rankings like Harvey states at the top - e.g Top 64 (Pro status) this is just as good as if not better than being an international

There is therefore a clear difference between the players in this bracket compared to the rest of the notts pool scene...

Quote :

beestongaz wrote :   Although it going off thread a little now, I dont think that particular tournament is too expensive, it is for a good cause and is to have a good day and remember an old mate for quite a few people. There are quite a few lads like Earl and big Bob that don't bother with tournaments but want to get through a round or two if they are playing well in this one and the handicap IS an incentive to turn up. But I agree some should be cheaper. Others, like me don't get time to put in quality practice, only match nights or the odd tournament. Although I am not bothered if I have a leg advantage or not. I like to test myself against the top players, I think we all enjoy the challenge, thats the attraction of pool for me. Maybe the answer is to handicap only on a players' merits, the problem with that is, its just one persons opinion, and tournaments are difficult enough police anyway. difficult one eh?

I don't mind entering these good cause tournaments for around £25-£30. That doesn't bother me. You know I support these cause's 100% any other comps I just will not enter if starting from -1. I want to support these comps but just feel it is a little unfair. I think Jarvey and Neil have put forward the solutions.

I think it's been mentioned here before, how about a handicap for players who have won singles titles within the last 2-3 years. because to win a singles title in any of the leagues you have to be pretty good.

Personally it doesn't bother me getting a -1 start against the likes of Clint, Jarvey or anyone else because if you can't beat someone like that on an equal footing i doubt a -1 start will be of much use.  

--Last edited by coatesy on 2009-01-05 00:06:58 --

I agree that the players shouldn't be penalised with a -1, seems a bit silly to me.
If you aren't good enough to enter the comps on an equal footing, then don't enter.
Personally i enter these comps with little hope of winning, but more to get practice against quality players.
When you have a situation where Jarvey is being penalised -1 against someone like Lee P for instance, then that is just stupid really.
Why not give the crap people like me who are donating money a 2 frame headstart just for being a sucker?    

Unfortunately Bar of Mars Lee P is also on the Tour so we started even, but I would have started on -1 against Body, Wyatt, Atherley etc.., who have all won more than I have over the years.

Gaz - you'd be surprised how many players there are on the Tour that wouldn't get in our County B side and just chuck money down the drain.  Some players pay and don't even turn up!  More money than sense!  As PK & NK say, it gives Notts players a choice of wanting to support tournaments like the Bobby Singh or getting experience on Tour.  They've both chosen the Tour and good luck to them.  It's very tough to win matches and a steep learning curve.  It will bring their game on a lot, but you pay a premium for the privilege.

Personally, my suggestion would still have penalised me a leg as I finished the Tour 86th (out of 87 lol).  The final rankings for others include NK 195th, Wayne Parsnip 162nd, Chris Riggers 146th, Adam Foyster 134th, Bill Rigby 130th, Lee Pickard 120th, Bayden 85th and Clint 58th (Professional).  Myself and Chris have left but to all those carrying on and the new players joining good luck to you.

Lots of interesting stuff here guys.  I just want to make a quick point from a Rileys perspective.

The Bobby Singh comp is hosted by Rileys but ran by Dale and Olly.  Olly decides the entrance rules and handicaps etc

The Dave Stimpson comp is hosted by Rileys but ran by Dale and he has decided the entrance rules and handicaps etc

On the 17th January (coincidentally the same day as the Dave Stimpson event), Rileys Nottingham will be announcing/ handing out a calendar of events.  These events will be varied and aimed at different levels of players.  

There will be fun tournaments where a sensible handicap system will be in place to ensure all the big guns do not scare off the lesser skilled player and there will be more serious comps were no handiap system or one that possibly just handicaps full internationals.  

The more serious events include a Nottingham Open which will be an annual event and a Midlands Open which will attract the best players from all over the Midlands for us to all pit our wits against.

Alongside these will be the national events that I'm currently working with Howard Miller on which includes 'The Hainsworth British Amateur Singles Pool Championship' and the Hainsworth team event

So, what I'm trying to say is that we will be running and hosting different competitions for an array of different abilities to ensure everybody in Notts gets the chance to not only enter but also do well in a comp.

I do empathise that tour players and those that put alot of practice into their game don't want to be handicapped for doing this, however I also see the other side of the coin that some players simply don't have the time to practice but don't want to be beaten in the first round of every competition that they enter because of this.  Hence, this is the reason that we will be running and hosting different events.  

--Last edited by RileysCol on 2009-01-05 12:30:44 --

If anyone has any suggestions of different events that they would like to see ran, please let me know.  I'm open to all suggestions!!  At the end of the day I feel Rileys are here to provide a quality service to Notts pool so if there is anything that you want, please let me know and I'm sure within reason it can be sorted!

Any chance of a singles league?
That way nobody can be knocked out in the first round and everybody gets to play the same amount of matches.
I know the number of games that would need to be played for a singles league might be a problem, but i think you will find that lesser players are more likely to enter if they are going to be playing in a league against better players as they know they won't just be playing one match and that's it.
Also it would give you some idea of what level your game was at if you could see where you finished in a league against good players.
Obviously prizes can be paid out depending on finishing positions in the league.

Quote :

NK wrote :   I might run a comp that says if you have ever played for Rileys or Ponda you start on -1  eh Gaz lol

come on Neil more like +2 lol
Theres a joke from one of the Royal Jokers  

Quote :

NK wrote :   I might run a comp that says if you have ever played for Rileys or Ponda you start on -1  eh Gaz lol

Thats not fair Neil as I know the real reason you Kelly's won't enter a handicap tournament is you were never at school long enough to know what -1 is!

It would be good to see any comp run by you Neil

Quote :

Al Capello wrote :   come on Neil more like +2 lol Theres a joke from one of the Royal Jokers

Thats more like it Al, what about giving us +2 when we come over to the set Olly loose on the Watnall wenches?